Instructions
Complete your reading of George Orwell's novel 1984 by Wednesday, December 3, 2008. When you reach one of the stopping points given below, respond to the Essential Question for that section of the novel. For each of the essential questions, you must respond to the question in 100-300 words and respond to the comments of at least one of your classmates in separate posts of the same length. Since this is a Web Log, your comments will not be nested, so be sure to identify the question and response you are addressing. Given that there are four stopping points and Essential Questions, I expect at least 8 responses from each of you.
NOTES: There is a cut-off date by which you must complete your responses to each essential question. I expect to read direct references to the novel and relevant discussion of pertinent ideas. Lastly, sign your posts with first name and last initial. Like this--John D.
Respond to the following question by Friday, November 21, 2008. Remember that posting on these questions ends at midnight.
After his first formal meeting with O'Brien, Winston receives a book, ostensibly written by Emmanuel Goldstein. In reading passages from this book, Winston is further enlightened as to how the current society came into being. Focus on these passages, and in particular, on the theory of the High, Middle, and Low classes (p. 179). If true, what does this theory hold for the proles? Is Winston's plan for the proles now altered? Why or why not?
80 comments:
According to the book, the low class never really gets anywhere in life. This means that the proles are doomed from the start. As they were individually chosen to be apart of the lower class, their minds have been altered to fit that category as well. It is best put by the book, “…for it is an abiding characteristic of the low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of anything outside their daily lives.” This makes it nearly impossible for Winston’s plan of the proles rising up to succeed. Another concept the book mentions is that the middle class pretends to be apart of the lower class in order to replace the high class, but eventually leaving the low class in the dust. Given this is true, Winston’s plan is, again, impossible. Every time the low class (proles) achieves nothing and is left right where they started, but because of their minds’ alterations, they are unaware of this. The hierarchy of classes must be changed in order for the proles to successfully overthrow the party.
In the first chapter, titled "Ignorance is Strength," Goldstein points out that the High are overthrown by the Middle in all revolutions. The Middle then becomes the new High, and they learn to keep their position by cultivating ignorance among the other classes through the Thought Police. Meanwhile, the only effect that this has on the Low is that there is a change in the ruling class. The proles held within them the essence of life, emotion, and oldspeak, because the Party could not extend their control over them. So, Winston, after reading the first chapter, concluded that if there were any hope, it lay with the proles. If the proles would only come to consciousness, they would have the ability to revolt and possibly overthrow the Party.
In response to Meredith:
I don't necessarily think the proles are doomed from the start. As I stated earlier, they have preserved the essence of life and emotions. This implies that they have not been totally overcome by the Party. There is still a chance that the proles will come to consciousness, realize their advantage over the Party, and ultimately overthrow the Party.
According to the book, the proles make up 85% percent of the population as opposed to the small inner party which is only 2% of the population. So, the question is not if the proles can revolt but how they can and what will push them over the edge. For the most part the proles tolerate their social position even though they are seen as the lowest class or “the dumb masses”. Goldstein believes that the lowest class usually doesn’t change social classes because they are unaware that they have the capability of doing so and because they have absolutely no plan of action. I think that Winston’s plan for the proles is still possible but it would be something that occurred very slowly. In order for the proles to revolt they need to be notified of their situation and they need to bring order to their leagues. The hope still does lie in the poles because they are the only ones that would be capable of organizing without being caught right away by the thought police. If the proles did succeed in organizing themselves even if it is to a very small degree then I believe that they have both the numbers and the power to overthrow the party.
In response to Meredith R:
I agree that it would be very difficult for the proles to overthrow the party but I definitely do not think that it is impossible. Change is bound to happen eventually and already there is opposition arising from the Brotherhood. If the proles were able to become conscious of the role that they could play in the revolution then I think that they would jump on the band wagon. Yes, the lower class usually does not move up in the social structure but this is mostly due to ignorance. If the Brotherhood could wipe out this ignorance in a handful or more proles then I believe this new knowledge would spread and eventually lead to revolution. The proles are not doomed but rather they are stuck. Once they realize that they can indeed overthrow the party then they most likely will. Right now they just need a push to get started and even though this may take a while once it does get started then it will be very difficult to stop.
Like Amy said the proles make up the majority of the population. They are brainwashed into believing everything the inner party feeds them. The proles don't realize they out number the inner party significantly. As individuals they will not have the strength to revolt. But I think Winston's plan for the proles could be successful if they all came together and organized themselves. They could all easily overrun the inner party. They just need to realize the inner party is all one big lie.
In response to Meredith:
I don’t think the proles are doomed. I think they have a fighting chance if they can just realize what is happening to them. If they can just come together then the proles will become stronger than the inner party. But she has a good point with the quote she pulled out for that does make it seem like the proles are doomed no matter what they do. I just still think they have a fighting chance.
The proles cannot come to consciousness by themselves. As Andrea said, the only thing that the low class sees is a change in the higher class. So, if that’s the only thing changing, and with this cycle being repeated so many times, why haven’t the proles caught on by now? I would like to hope that they could rise up but realistically, when? I’m sure many people in the inner party have realized this notion before that the proles are the only hope, but with no one actually communicating this thought to them, they simply cannot figure out that they are the only ones capable to overthrow Big Brother. In response to Andrea and Sarah G.P., how do the proles have a fighting chance with such mind control put upon them that they can’t even realize their position in the cycle of classes? All I see is that they just have to realize, well, how do they realize?
It's said that knowledge is power. What I found interesting was the fluidity of the three social classes...because status was based on a test, it's always guaranteed that the inner-party maintains power. If we look at past revolution; Moses in Egypt, Communism in Russia, and even Radical-Islamic terrorism, we see two common components. The first is smart leadership; given the test, the proles will never have leaders. The second is the sense of repression through generations; the proles don't feel this because they believe in the fluid concept of Oceania and the ability to move up by self ability. The government was smart in taking away leadership and motivation; Winston was doomed to fail.
To Amy and Andrea-
You, just like Winston, keep on talking about the possibility of "waking" the proles. It's not the issue of whether the proles are conscious of their situation, it's that they are content with the status quo. They have privacy, the ability to marry, speak their minds, and live without government interference. More importantly, they believe their offspring have the chance to move up the social ladder through ability (though most wouldn't care to, it's the simply mirage that maintains order). Why fix something if its not broken? The only ones who want revolution are discontent party members who lack these freedoms. Even if the proles KNEW about the situation in government, would they really want change? My answer is no.
The Proles have no potential to overcome the Party. The society as it exists in Oceania is specifically designed to preserve existing inequities. The reason that inner members of IngSoc exude propaganda, scrutinize the populace, and allow the quality of life to diminish is because these pathologies entrench their positions of power. This is even explicitly stated in Goldstein’s book, “From the point of view of the Low, no historic change has ever meant much more than a change in the name of their masters.” Additionally, for evidence that the Proles will not rebel, you can look to Newspeak. The very language espoused by the Party is designed to systematically control the thoughts of the population. Syme elaborates: “In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.” In this way, we can see that there is no hope for the Proles.
In response to Amy and Andrea:
There is no hope for the Proles. They simply lack the capability to overcome their masters (see my previous post for reasons why). But, even if the lower classes were to rebel against the Party and the principles of IngSoc, where would that get them? Goldstein states in his book, “The essential structure of society has never altered. Even after enormous upheavals and seemingly irrevocable changes, the same pattern has always reasserted itself, just as a gyroscope will always return to equilibrium, however far it is pushed one way of the other.” A revolution against the government of Oceania would not significantly change the distribution of power in society. Think about it, IngSoc is supposed to be a socialist government, meaning that the fundamental principle of their ideology is egalitarianism. Yet look at the disparity between the upper and lower classes. Why would a revolt of the lower classes solve such inequality?
As Winston finds out, the low class has been stuck in their rather hopeless state because of the government's own actions. The never-ending wars that continue on thanks to Oceania were apparently started in order to increase the labor while not increasing the wealth of the people. Also, it was mentioned that large groups of people were placed in forced-labor camps in order to keep the hierarchy of classes stable. In this sense, the classes are absolutely rigid, as dictated by the Party. I certainly had the sense that the proles have no hope, just the same as Meredith. They seem too oblivious to the absolute mirage that is their lives to have the ability to change anything about their lives. Their rise to success would be impossible, unless the high class were weakened in some way.
Will:
I really like how you constantly look at history and relate it to Oceania's struggles...and I agree with your statements about the two ultimate reasons why the proles are doomed from rising up on the social ladder. They are absolutely fixed in their belief that the ability to succeed remains attainable, when in fact it is a complete farce. The Party's ability to completely control and manipulate its people, especially the lower class, is startling. I doubt that the cycle could be broken by any prole; one would need a desperate person such as Winston to realize the illusion that Oceania is and even begin to think of somehow breaking free of it.
In "1984", the middle class is able to overcome the high class in all revolutions. They are then able to use ignorance on the other classes of society through the use of the thought police. The only way for Winstons's plan to work would be with the help of the proles. The proles are able to become conscious to what society really is they would have the ability to overcome the government and overthrow it completely. However, since they are ignorant and do not realize what is happening, the proles do nothing.
In response to Sarah,
I agree with you that the proles do have what it takes to overcome the government. If they just become aware that they outnumber the inner party then there is a really good shot of overthrowing the government. The real problem, however, is that the proles need to realize that the inner party is a huge lie. When that is achieved overthrowing the government would not be so difficult.
The Proles will be the future for Oceania. Even though they do not have nearly as many rights or the status as the members of Party, they do know the meaning of what it means to be truly human. They still feel happy and sad. They sing and are free to love one another. However, the Party members are deprived of all these simple pleasures. They are more robotic than anything else. It is by seing the status of the Proles that the Party members will realize that even though they might have a higher social status than them, the Proles are living a fuller life. It is after seeing them that the Party members can start a revolution. Also, their numbers can help aid them. If the Proles all rally behind an intelligent leader, the government can be easily overthrown.
According to “The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism," the proles (lower class) are unable to understand that the world they live in could actually be different. They have no freedom of choice. According to the book "Of the three groups (lower, middle and higher) only the lower class is never temporarily successful at reaching their aims.” This is because they have been brainwashed by The Party. They never have a chance of moving up into a higher class. Even when the higher class loses the ability to govern, the middle class can then take over. The middle class may choose to put the proles on their side, but once they gain control, they throw the lower class back to where they started. Because the proles will never have an impulse to rebel or alter their consciousness, Winston's plan will never be possible.
The fact that the proles are considered the Low class means absolutely nothing. Disregard the lines in Chapter 1: IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH that state that only the Middle class can revolt against the High class and look to the part of Emmanuel Goldstein's theory that states the ways in which a ruling group can fall from power. "There are four ways in which a ruling group can fall from power. Either it is conquered from without, or it governs so inefficiently that the masses are stirred to revolt, or it allows a strong and discontented Middle Group to come into being, or it losses its own self-confidence and willingness to govern. These causes do not operate singly, and as a rule all four of them are present in some degree (p.206)." From this quote, the most striking of the four ways is the ruling group allows a new strong and discontented Middle Group to come into existence. As stated before in "1984", the proles are the actual human beings. Their feelings have not been altered by the Party in anyways and they can still think for themselves. Although the proles may not necessarily want a revolt at the moment, the have the potential to spark a revolution. They can still rise to a group of aware and spiritied individuals. Another point is that the proles make up 85
percent of the population. Thus, the proles can represent the "strong and discontented" group to take down the High Class, or Inner Party. Winston's plan is not necessarily impossible. The future of Oceania belongs to the proles.
In response to Meredith R.'s last comment...
I agree with what you said about how the proles need to realize that they are the ones that have the potential to overthrow Big Brother. Obviously, the proles have the potential to raise such a rebellion because they have the feelings (although not sparked at the moment) and they have the numbers. In my opinion, all they need is a leader. They need someone who realizes that the government is corrupt and filled with lies... Hmm, I wonder who that person could be? I have not finished the book yet, but perhaps Winston will do something spectacular.
The position of the Proles is static. As outlined in Goldstein's book, a societal structure only ever experiences notable change in the higher echelons. “From the point of view of the Low, no historic change has ever meant much more than a change in the name of their masters.” The role of the Low classes has forever been as a tool for the ambitious Middle class and as such are used to this system of exploitation and subsequent abandonment. They are stuck to their role and in a society were the Party has created an unchanging societal structure where each level remains were they are accustomed to, they no longer have a role; they have become obsolete. In addition, although the government has actively been attempting to increase the existing inequities between members of the Party and the Proles and as such seek to degrade them further, the Proles themselves have very little reason to change things. In a way, they are more free then the Party members themselves; they can marry for love, speak however they wish and for the most part adhere to customs that have since been abolished. These factors dramatically alter the loose plan that Wilson had for the Proles. In affect, they have destroyed whatever hope Winston must have for them
Emmanuel Goldstein outlines some principles that are constant parts of society. One of these is the separation of classes. If this theory holds true, than the Proles will most likely be stuck in their social status forever. Goldstein talks about the vicious cycle of the High being overthrown by the Middle. To help them achieve victory, Goldstein claims that the Middle then enlist the Low promising liberty and justice. It is quite possible that the Middle could overthrow Big Brother’s regime, but even if this occurs Goldstein still believes that the Middle will “thrust the Low back into their positions of servitude.” If Goldstein’s theory holds true then there is no hope for the Proles because they are the only group that remains stationary and without upward movement in the social ladder.
Winston’s plan for the Proles should, however, remain unaltered. Winston wants to overthrow the Party and Goldstein specifically says that the Low are very useful for helping with that, especially because 85% of the population are Proles. It is a completely separate decision of whether Winston and the Brotherhood should thrust the Low back into their original positions or not. Either way, Winston’s plan for the Proles should go unchanged.
In response to Amy:
I would agree that the Proles have the ability to overthrow the Inner Party, but it would have to be accompanied by a plan and some motivation by the Middle. Regardless of whether they have the ability to overthrow the Party, or even if they actually do it, the Proles will still remain stuck in their social situation.
Goldstein believes that the change of classes is merely a cycle and that no real changes are made. However in the case of 1984, I believe that if the Middle and Low overthrow the High then the type of power that the new High will exert will be very different. The principles of the Brotherhood, as we can see it now, would lead us to believe that a new government led by the Brotherhood would be more heavily based on justice and equality. It is hard to tell how people will act with immense power, but the Proles might end up benefitting from an overthrow, even if they remain in the same class.
Goldstein said that the Low class has been made totally immobile by the class inequities, they are educated less, they have more tiring jobs, and they have more children. They are simply too busy and dumb to plan a revolution and rise up as a class.
The Middle and High classes are barely significantly different, only in that one has the political power. The low, is inequal though.
But, Winston's plan is not lost, Goldstein also mentioned that every revolution involved the Middle enlisting the Low to fight their war for them, and this could still happen theoretically. If the middle class took on the ideals of freedom liberty and brotherhood, they could use the dispensible Low to their advantage.
The problem is however, not that they could not enlist the proles, but that they could not get a big enough following in the Middle due to the power of doublethink and propaganda.
The book which Winston receives is really just a dull, mid-novel summary of what the reader already knows or suspects. And just as the reader is not particularly surprised, neither is Winston. Orwell even says (p. 217) "Chapter 1, like Chapter 3, had not actually told him anything that he did not know; it had merely systematized the knowledge that he possessed already." So I'm not quite clear how "enlightened" Winston has become after reading this.
Winston does suddenly feel compassion toward the prole woman outside after reading (and before being kidnapped). Maybe the lower class truly is the free class, though certainly not the happy class. If nothing is expected of you, then you are free to do almost anything you please singing, for example. I was downtown last week and I saw, perhaps, one hundred businessmen and a handful of homeless people. Two of the bums, were in fact singing. No, businessmen, making the fraction of singing bums/businessmen infinity. All the more power to the lower class, may you not be there forever.
Because Henry brought it up, I'd like to respond to his thoughts on Newspeak. Particularly, Henry's accurate statement that, "The very language espoused by the Party is designed to systematically control the thoughts of the population." This is interesting, because in our own English, we lack certain concepts found in other languages. The most interesting, I find, is the lack of a good "neither yes nor no" word or phrase in general vernacular. We come off rather clumsy in saying "I don't like him, but I don't dislike him." Or, "Your question isn't such that it can incorporate my answer." English has good Yes(s) and No(s), and some decent Maybe(s), but we need a sort of "none of the above." Does this make our society more "black and white?" Could this be for the better? I think it might force us all to make opinions, eliminating the need for public forum and intelligent discussion. Of course, Newspeak is the extreme, eliminating all thought or personal opinion.
What I found most striking in the Goldstein passages were their overwhelming sense of hopelessness. With the never ending war, border disputes and constant cycling of classes, the world was reduced to stagnant and meaningless. The pathetic equilibrium between Oceania, Eastasia, and Eurasia is utterly wasteful. In this dystopia there are no means to attain a meaningful life. Everything is impossibly mundane. Even Winston's affair with Julia is wasteful and meaningless because like everything in that world it comes to nothing. Winston mentions a few times that the hope for substance is found in the proles. Yet, as Goldstien points out, what investment to the proles have in the rest of society. All that changes for them in a regime change is who their masters are. Life is just as awful for the low class no matter what. This world is not a stuggle between the haves and the have nots but the haves and the have mores. The proles have the same role forever. This does not actually shatters Winston's hopes for the proles, he never really had any to begin with, but the book serves an important purpose - Winston is no longer entirely alone in his beliefs. The book allows Winston to feel less crazy, and like that photograph it gives Winston a rare experience with truth.
In response to Lincoln.
" Maybe the lower class truly is the free class, though certainly not the happy class. "
I felt similarly towards the proles. Unlike Winston and the rest of the party members, they are allowed freedom. Granted, its the freedom to stew in their own filth, but its more freedom that Winston or Julia will ever be afforded. The proles are free to their misery and. in a sense, free in their misery. So, it is a question of value to determine which class is better off. What is more important freedom or power?
I disagree with Henry when he stated that the Proles have no potential to overcome the Party. They definitely are capable of uprooting their government if they had sturdy leadership. The Proles obviously do not enjoy their current lifestyle. If an authority figure would stand up and take advantage of this, he can definitely use them. Sure, left to their own resources, the Proles are pretty helpless. But, just as easily as Newspeak changes their thinking pattern, another person or new set of ideas could also change their behavior.
I also believe that the lower class (the proles) have little potential to collectively rise up and begin a revolution. They lack the intelligence to do so. They are simply ignorant and will accept whatever lies the Party feeds them. The Proles are in a never-ending cycle in my opinion. In The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism it elaborates on the idea that two allied nations are not able to defeat the third. Since the beginning of The Party's history they have always been at war, and whether they were fighting Eurasia or Eastasia, it was just to allow the high class to stay in power and to keep the low class ignorant and working. This sheds light on the idea of War is Peace because it prevents revolutions from the proles. It also highlights the cycle of ignorance that the proles have been stuck in.
In Response to to Will:
I agree on your view that the proles have no real motivation to revolt. They possess many basic freedoms that the middle and upper classes significantly lack. So I too question why they would truly want to organize a revolt when they can't assure whether the outcome could result in worst conditions then they experience now. If the proles did stage a revolt it would be very likely that poor leadership would develop and the quality of their lives would deteriorate. As a result, I don't believe that they would be willing to take that risk when they are content with their lives. They would have to seriously consider the potential consequences of an attempted revolt to actually do it. This only stands true if the proles can come to consciousness, a very unlikely event.
Goldstein’s theory of High, Middle, and Low classes refers to socioeconomic patterns existing up to and including the mechanistic revolution around the 1940s. He states that the reason authoritarian governments became common never was to defend earlier, truly socialistic ideals, but to prevent true equality from developing. The Middle, according to him, is never truly concerned with the status of the Low, but only uses “equality” as a gimmick to wrestle power away from the High and seize it for themselves. Therefore, it is clear that hope cannot lie with the Outer Party, because they would just begin the cycle all over again; the minute they overthrew the Inner Party, they would be so brainwashed by many years of the old social order that they would have no reason to establish equality.
Even so, Goldstein states that the aim of the Low is “to abolish all distinctions and create a society in which all men shall be equal.” The only way to break the cycle of tyranny is for the Low to finally achieve their aims, so the only legitimate manifestation of socialist ideals must come from the proles. Goldstein himself admits that this is possible and states this as a reason for the better central planning by totalitarian governments in the 1950s that was designed to solidify the existing social structure, saying, “The principal, underlying cause was that, as early as the beginning of the twentieth century, human equality had become technically possible [emphasis added]…it was no longer necessary for them to live at different social or economic levels.” Hope must lie with the proles because their aims are both possible to achieve and would break the cycle of tyranny. Proles are not subject to the extensive brainwashing that occurs within the Party, so many of them could probably remember times when the people were better off economically, and may express their discontent. If they could be made aware that it is now actually possible for them to achieve their aims, a revolt would be inevitable.
In response to Henry Cornillie, there is still hope for the proles precisely because they have not been brainwashed to the extent that revolt would be impossible. Proles do not speak Newspeak, they have freedom of thought and freedom of expression, and many of them can probably remember that things have gotten steadily worse since the Party has been in power. Goldstein even admits that it is possible for the proles to achieve their aims, which is the entire reason why authoritarian governments became common in the first place. The mechanistic revolution removes any need for real socioeconomic classes, and makes the entire centuries-old goal of the Low feasible. Giving the proles such free reign is probably the number one “mistake” of the Party, a weakness that could be exploited by the Brotherhood to bring about their downfall and usher in the advent of true socialism. Since the proles have not been brainwashed, they could easily be persuaded by common sense that everyone, especially they, would be better off if there were no Party, since the modern economic condition would lead to a more equitable distribution of wealth; so to answer your rhetorical question, Henry, a proletarian revolution would result in real social change, as opposed to just more power mongering between the High and Middle as a result of a revolution led by the Outer Party. Hope lies with the proles because their aims are feasible and result in real social change.
In response to Zahra
I believe that the proles are the ones who will bring change to Oceania, but I think that there has to be a change in the social classes in order for them to take over The Party. I do agree that the proles know what it means to be human, but because all of their feelings are being suppressed, they do become virtually inhuman. Winston's plan has an advantage because the proles make up 85% of the population, but with the proles' struggle of moving up in the social classes and with their deprivation of feelings, Winston's plan will be hard to succeed.
In response to David N. post, I think that you are correct in that the Proles have no where to go. They can help the middle class to over throw the upper class but eventually they will end up back to where they started. They are stuck in a cycle that does not allow them to advance at all on the social scale. I do think though that Winston should change his plan for them because according to Goldstein, they can not accomplish anything without the help of the middle class. That middle class would also include Winston. Now that Winston is part of The Brotherhood, he will be empowered to enlist the help of the lower class to help him overthrow the current government. His plan should now include himself as well as the Proles to stop The Inner Party. Winston’s efforts probably wont see any improvement for society while he is alive, but the movement must be started sometime. He will be able to get the ball rolling for the Proles, but considerable change will not happen for a while. All Winston can hope for is a better future for others.
Throughout the whole book, we as readers have been waiting to get more information to understand the overall picture. We have finally got it and in my opinion is it very interesting. The Book explains to us why and how things are they way they are. Goldstein states that order The Party needs depends on there being high, middle and low classes. The Party achieves this by waging on a war that can never end and they control their people through extreme poverty and massive propaganda. I can understand their reasoning for all of this, but I find it unnecessary. It is impossible to achieve total equality for everyone, Goldstein points that out to us in his book, so why go to such extreme lengths to create poverty when it will naturally occur. If, according to the belief held by The Party, that social classes are needed to create order in the world, shouldn’t that naturally be achieved? Life before The Party seemed to function pretty well without them and if anything the world has regressed thanks to them. I don’t think this theory for order holds up well. Extreme poverty and governmental control is not needed to create a functioning society.
Winston’s plan for the proles could happen, and remains unchanged after reading Goldstein's passages. The proles have the potential to have a rebellion against their totalitarian government because they are the followers of the society. Without their support and dedication to government’s laws and thoughts, the Party would be pointless and not successful. With the resources they have right now, the proles are pretty hopeless, but they need a strong group of leaders to get in the right direction. If they were to organize this revolt in a secretive manner, their chances of getting caught by the thought police are very slim. In large numbers, the proles could definitely overthrow this government. The status quo is constantly changing in this society in regards to war and what the society believes at the time. The proles are real people, and I would like to believe that they are bound to realize that this society is crazy. But, their desire to stay as a part of the lower class may stay that way forever. Something needs to occur that will make the proles realize that they live in a word of manipulation.
I agree with Henry and in part with David Nolan-
I agree that though the Proles have the potential to affect drastic change, it is unlikely that they will take part in any change of Oceania. As Emmaunel Goldstein himself pointed out, the Party has created a static system, where the positions of each caste are locked is statis. The Party manages to keep the Proles subdued and the Middle Class obedient. However as David Nolan asutely observes, the Proles may just need a little prodding from the Middle Class but this would require the Middle Class to prod itself. Also, as I said in my original posting, the Proles have very little reason to want spark a revolution. They enjoy amenities that many of the Party members are forced to do with out.
From an outlook of strictly feasibility, yes the Proles with their overwhelming numbers could overthrow the Party. However, it is not likely to happen.
In response to Kate Donohue, I completely agree with her when she says, “Since the beginning of the Party’s history they have always been at war… it was just to allow the high class to stay in power and to keep the low class ignorant and working. This sheds light on the idea of War is Peace…” The proles really have been stuck in a cycle of ignorance since the beginning. The higher class citizens are manipulating them, so that the wealth of the lower class never increases. But, I think that these low class citizens need to get out of their old habits, coordinate with the middle class, and start a revolution! It is time for change in this society, but I could see the proles being very scared in this situation. They might become afraid that their simple freedoms will be destroyed. They could start out as one large, confident group, but one the proles came into contact with the higher class and leaders of the government, they just might run back to their usual state after they are threatened.
I think it is unlikely that the proles can overthrow the innerparty because they have been specifically chosen to be in the lowerclass and have been brainwashed into believing that they are not capable of doing so. However, Winston's plan could work. If they understood that they make up a very large majority of the population and could regain their consciousness, they would be able to recognize that they have the power to overthrow the innerclass.
In response to Kate:
"They lack the intelligence to do so. They are simply ignorant and will accept whatever lies the Party feeds them."
I think that because the lower class is ignorant, it has allowed the party to set a path for them that is a never ending cycle where they never can reach success. However, this also would allow them to follow if a strong leader convinced them to revolt. They may not be intelligent, but they make up 85% of the population.
In response to Woody’s response:
Your argument hinges on the statement that the Proles will “remember that things have gotten steadily worse since the Party has been in power.” However, it is clear from reading the book that almost nobody has a semblance of memory of life before Oceania. So, it isn’t reasonable to declare that one day the Proles will on mass just decide to revolt. Additionally, Woody, why would a proletarian revolution result in real social change? The reasoning you provide for this question is that “the modern economic condition would lead to a more equitable distribution of wealth.” I have two responses: the first is that the inequity being discussed is not inequity in wealth distribution, but rather in power distribution so the strength of the economy isn’t relevant. Secondly, why do you assume that power, or wealth for that matter, would be distributed equitably? What I was trying to demonstrate with my second post, is that there is no reason to assume that the lower class can or will secure an egalitarian outcome. If the Proles take Zahra’s advice and look to an authority figure then they are not truly causing social change, but rather replacing an old authority with a new one. So, I beg the question Woody, can you think of a revolution in history that has secured real lasting egalitarian outcomes?
Get ready, this is wordy:
Orwell wants to build a dynamic model of history, and he does it with what I'm going to call the Newtonian method, because it acts a lot like basic mechanics. First he conjures up an illusory system of revolution, like a swinging pendulum (I came up with the pendulum image myself - it was to my awesome surprise to find that Orwell himself described this example): on p.203 "the familiar pendulum swing was to happen once more and then stop". He's talking about the pendulum of high and middle classes constantly taking power from each other, back and forth, until the collective energy reaches a threshold where "somebody" really smart will grab the pendulum and stop it right where it is. Orwell, like a traitor to capitalism, surrenders to Marx's flawed idea and thinks that society will reach a fixed state. The proles, controlled by ignorance and fear, will never have an inkling of their economic as well as political power. Here Orwell is right - change will most likely not come from within the proles. For all their 85% majority the issue of power is really a non-issue: like the election of 2000, the fight really comes down to a small state. The Newtonian system is more like a Quantum system, where although most wave energy (represented by the democratic ideals killed by the Party) is absorbed and stopped, some, by chance, reflects back due to the natural resistance it has encountered. This is where some free ideal will spontaneously arise in an inner or outer party member, and spark a new revolution. So in the end, the answer to whether society is doomed is yes and no. Hope probably DOES NOT lie in the proles (unless a few proles are unusually intellectual), but it does lie somewhere and not even the destruction of history can stop it. Winston could not have deduced the above just after reading Goldsteins book, so he still thinks hope lies in the proles. This is false. But there is hope, whether anybody believes it or not.
In response to Woody:
I would take Goldstein's book with a heavy dosage of skepticism. I mean, it was written by O'Brian. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but the purpose of "the book" is as a pyschological tool to give false hope to dissidents within the party. It wasn't written with any intention of being correct. In relation to the proles, I believe political power exists in the almost mathematically chaotic forces that cause change to happen spontaneously, rather than in than the instaneous needs that drive groups of people, like some old prole grandfather telling his grandson that chocolate tasted better when he was a kid. Thus, although the eventual revolution might happen in the proles, the Party's iron curtain operation has pretty efficiently stamped out the persistance of memory, and especially of random "realization", like maybe a prole wondering if his toilet would be cooler if it had a heated seat. (Although don't get me wrong, if spontaneity is real then there could be some ingenious guy out there!)
Anyway, if there is hope at all, it probably lies in the inner Party members where they have the power to turn off their telescreens and dream of killing Big Brother or whoever handles the high-level stuff relating to Big Brother.
I don't think the proles will ever be able to rise to power, not only because in the book, Goldstein explains that the Low are always the Low, and have no chance at rising to their aims, but because they have no consciousness of the harsh realities of the Party. They never care to know who Oceania is at war with, or even that they are in a war at all. This type of carlessness will not somehow lead to a desire to overthrow the Party. Plus, without knowledge of the happenings of the Party which they can overthrow, they have no hope for rising to that power. The ignorant can never rule. They not only will not have as much of a hatred passion for the Party as they could without being bothered by the detials, but will be unaware on how to create a better community.
In response to Andrea F's comment..
I agree that if the proles rose to consciousness, they would at least have the potential to rise to power. As of now, they choose to be uneducated about the Party. Even though they aren't nearly as involved as the others, they need to know what is wrong with Party in order to create a better community when they overthrow it. Who knows, they could overthrow it and create a community almost identical to the Party. Without being involved, they also aren't creating a passion of hatred for the party that could motivate them to overthrow the Party. Without this motivation, what could possibly be propelling them to overthrow a Party that doesn't really involve them much anyways?
@ Aleksander
NOTE: This is probably riddled with spoilers, so if you haven't finished the book yet, refrain from reading this.
Your metaphor was quite good, but I disagree that there is hope. First off, we must look, the book is fictional, if Orwell doesn't want there to be hope, it cannot exist. In real life many of these following arguments would have flaws, however, Winston's world is far different then our own, and our psychology does not hold true there. You accurately state that the "waves" of democratic ideals will bounce back in natural resistance, however, the Party is well set up for that, and have suicidal paths for rebels to follow. If you want your government to be totally secure, it is necessary to make tricks for rebels. If the rebellion fronts are secretly government shams, rebellion fronts have no chance.
There are two types of rebels, the smart self starters who have ideological problems with the system, and the rebels for the sake of rebellion. Winston would probably be one of the first group, and Julia would be the latter. Winston however is pretty submissive, as the government has taught him to be, so he follows the Brotherhood, which is not much better than the party, if you recall the induction oath. Some however may have more distrust in establishments than Winston, so they will make their own resistance group. However, they will not be able to recruit a large group, as the majority of rebellious people are of Julia's group, and will follow the one they hear about most, and with total government control of the press, that can only be The Brotherhood.
“It is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of anything outside their daily lives.” According to this statement of chapter one from the book, it is nearly impossible to see Winston’s plan of the proles to overtake the current government succeeding. Although the proles do make up about eighty five percent of Oceania’s population, numbers are not enough. If they are not aware of what is actually happening to them, I find it hard to believe that they would be able to organize a revolt against such a well structured government. As long as the Inner Party keeps the lower class busy with other unimportant issues and continue to give them the bare minimum, the proles will continue living as the lower class. Even if the proles were able to realize their potential of making a difference, there is still the reality of carrying out a plan that would be able to destroy a government which possesses many weapons and resources the proles could never get their hands on.
Goldstein states that the lowest class can never rise. The middle class, on rare occasions, sometimes is able to conquer the high class, but the low class always stays where it is. The only conceivable change that the low class would want is the equality of all classes, yet this is impossible. They do not control enough power, and as a low class, they remain ignorant of much of the problems with which they are surrounded. Therefore, they could never have the ability to join together as a class and overtake the higher classes without being noticed. However, the question is whether the low class is in fact the worst, as they are more capable of emotion and independence from the government.
In response to Will:
I entirely agree with your argument that the proles will not revolt if they are satisfied with current conditions. While they are labeled as the low class, they receive independence that the middle class does not receive. They are allowed to think, to marry, etc. and have the liberties of life. Why would they revolt and try to push upwards towards the middle class when through this process they would lose their fundamental rights as human beings? Regardless of their recognition of their label as the low class, they should be happy with this status quo.
I agree with Amy when she brought up the point that the proles would be the only group to overtake the government because they are in fact the only group that could possibly organize themselves without the Thought Police catching them. She also brought up the point that in order for Winston’s theory to become reality, the proles would somehow need to become aware of their potential power in overtaking the government. I believe that is the biggest problem for Winston’s theory. For one thing there is no way to identify a prole, Winston thought Mr. Charrington was a prole, and he ended up working for the Thought Police. How would it be possible for a person like Winston to know which prole he could trust to tell? Another problem is that because Winston is part of the Lower class, he does not live the same life as those class members, and therefore would have a hard time even relating to them. They may appreciate their life now and feel there is no need for change. But if Winston was able to find the perfect prole, or group of proles, to suggest his theory to, they could possibly have a chance of succeeding in overthrowing the government due to their large population.
In response to Charlie's response to my response:
You are absolutely right that it is pretty dang hard to create rebellion, probably especially so in the outer party, where they are forced to submit daily to constant surveillance, the influence of the inner party, and the mirage of a Brotherhood. You're right in implying that the "threat" of the Brotherhood actually helps the government by being a grease trap for nascient rebels: as soon as the bud forms, they chop it off. You are also right in saying that we need to think differently with respect to Orwell's system. So I am, as follows:
I'm talking more about a chaotic system where anything coincidental can occur; where political change occurs in an indirect way that defies the intelligent design of the party. For example, maybe lightening strikes a communications tower and the computer system that governs the telescreens blacks out for a few minutes. The guy who repairs it realizes he can reset the system at will, maybe leaving out a few screens in his house or feeding loops into the hallway cams. After awhile, he would become more powerful than Big Brother because he has found a way to impose control on the system. That guy would be the breach where the system falls apart. In a chaotic system, nothing is foolproof.
So what I'm saying is that revolution can occur in very odd, subtle ways - not just the obvious ways that rebels come up with an idea and gravitate towards the Brotherhood.
According to the book, the middle class will, on occasion, switch places with the high class even though the high class just wants to stay where it is. The low class, on the other hand, never has the ability to rise up and conquer either the high class or the middle class and will inevitably stay where it is on the bottom. The low class wants equality between everyone, but this is a very improbable situation. Logically, since the low class makes up about 85% of Oceania’s population, Winston’s idea that the proles can take over the Party should be realistic. However, Emmanuel Goldstein’s theory does not support this logic.
In response to Andrea Fodor…
I agree that the proles have held within themselves the essence of life, emotion, and oldspeak because the Party has not extended its complete control over them. However, I do not believe that in order to overthrow the Party all they have to do is “come to consciousness.” In order for a group of people to overthrow a totalitarian government, every person needs a deep desire to reach the goal at the end. A mere thought or idea will not be enough. The proles need to be shown exactly what they can accomplish if they come together. They need someone to help them find the emotions and freedom the rest of Oceania has lost.
@ Bapst's most recent comment...
In a Chaotic system, then yes, the repairman could change it for himself. That little push could be just the begining. It doesnt matter how that push starts, With a power outage, or technical difficulty. I would like to think that the party has planned for it, but chances are they didnt. Ypu cant be prepared for anything. To put down rebels though, they could "cause" a blackout, or some other form that would invoke realization, and would monitor that subject even closer. It would be a great way to setup the "rebels". Of course though as Charlie stated earlier
"If you want your government to be totally secure, it is necessary to make tricks for rebels." If you want a completely secure government you need to not hae rebels. You must create an enviroment in which no one wants to move up or down. Or rather give them a taste of above and below regularly so that they know what they are missing, and know what they have. If the citizens are comfortable with where they are, Then there is no need for rebellion. That is they type of "tricks" you must set up for rebels. Give them no reason to rebel. Orwells system is bound to fail. More like he set it up to fail. No all three Entities will exist, neither will move up or down, but they will fail in what they originally set out to do. To protect and server their citizens. As for how the current society came into being, we cannot believe a simple journal. with all the history altering and falsifying, the system could have been discovered by mistake or even setup by an enemy. No one will ever know. -Matt Sulikowski
Society in Oceania is forced to live with high, middle, and low classes because it is how the party designed the social order to exist. The party has complete control and do not enable the lower class to even of the potential to succeed. The party continues the war in order to keep the lower class in a state of poverty as well as keeping distinction between classes by forcing this class into work at camps. The proles do not understand the fact that they could rise above this poverty line, they could overthrow and rebel against the party, but the problem lies in the question of how. The party will certainly never teach them and as a result they will never learn. Thus, Winston’s plan for the proles will never become more than simply a dream; it will ultimately vanish and will always remain a question of ‘what if?’ or ‘what would have happened?’
In response to Amy M -
I agree with your statement that proles have the ability and it is simply a question of how. The problem is also that in order for the proles to revolt they have to be able to see that they are capable of making a difference. They are still in a mirage that nothing seems to be a problem, that this is simply how life is. It is similar to what Meredith said, 'The hierarchy of classes must be changed in order for the proles to successfully overthrow the party.' The proles need to see where they currently are and from there be able to attempt a revolution. Once the proles minds can be changed to a similar state of Wilson’s – that is being able to understand that a revolt is plausible – that is when words will be changed into action.
Winston’s discovery of Goldstein’s book is statement of fact that Oceania was structured on a purpose. This government did not just happen to come about due to a terrible catastrophe or some wing of events. Goldstein has planned out the lives of the three classes and knows what it takes to keep them locked in place. However, now that Winston also knows Goldstein’s theories it is no longer ignorance but knowledge that is strength. Winston is now able to take his revolutionary ideas and hit Oceania right where it hurts. Like taking out the keystone in an archway, if Winston could only inform the proles of their power over the government, the whole system could come crashing down. As stated by Goldstein’s book, the proles incorporate about 85% of the people where as the Inner Party on 2%. Oceania has always taken the view that as long as its people are ignorant of their own power, they will never revolt. The government does this in ways like Doublethink and Newspeak. In the end, all Winston needs to do in order to overthrow Oceania is inform the proles of what they are fully capable of and lead them through a revolution.--
Kurt S
In response to both of Mr. LHS’ (Lincoln Holcomb Shulte’s) comments--
I’m very intrigued by both your comments and your ability to bring in outside information and directly relate, and even compare, it to our own society today. The idea of the two bums singing on the street and the business men not I think has a little more to do with than strict social classes. Taken verbatim, however, the homeless men do have more of a freedom to do whatever they want. The business men could all do that as well, yet I’m sure some social out casting would be involved. As for your remarks on the none-of-the-above words, would not making a negotiable yes/no word be a form of doublethink as you are saying yes and no at the same time? Unless you mean to say that you wish to answer the question with neither a yes nor a no and would rather choose something different? In that case, all that is required is the mediocre knowledge of the English language. In foreign language classes, I often find myself answering yes or no only because I don’t know what else to say. Once I actually learn the language well enough, I’m sure I could respond with a more definite answer without the use of ‘doublethink’.--
Kurt S
The theory suggests that the proles could join with the middle class and revolt aggainst big brother. It would only be a matter of whether or not the middle class would want to join in with lower class. Since the middle class and the lower class themselves don't see eachother as capable of overcoming their status. They are made to believe by the high class that they are nothing. The lower class would have to be able to realize and have faith in themselves inorder to take such a big step. Winston believes the proles could overthrow the high class but if they don't believe in themselves then this can't happen. The proles have two things going for them. They are the most human out of the classes and they outnumber them too. If they just realized this they would be able to see the potential they really have.
I agree with Amy I think the proles just need a push to open up their eyes and see that they have the most possibilities to overthrow big brother. If within the brotherhood revolution is striking up there is possibility that within the proles the idea has come about. They are the closest to being human out of all the social classes. They just don't know how to use their human senses yet.I think Winston could be the push they need. He could be the one to open up their eyes and make them see the reality of things. If he joined them and told them his ideas and kept everything secret without suspicion a revolution could work.
The theory that this holds for the "dumb masses" is that although they are the complete majority of the Oceania population (Roughly 85%) they are unaware of their ability to to use their large numbers to overthrow Big Brother and affiliates. Their lack of knowledge about their own power completely demolishes Winston's plan of them ever rising up and taking control. It's not just the fact that the proles don't want to overthrow the party, it's just that they don't know any life other than the one they are currently living in. They lack the essential idea that there is a world that is greater than theirs. If that is the way the proles see it, then the hope for Winston's prole overthrowing of the Party is very slim to none.
After Winston’s reading, it is clear that the position and power of the Proles is not entirely what Winston previously believed. According to Goldstein, the lower class, the Proles, is interminably bound to exist below that of the middle/upper groups. History constantly repeated itself. A high class developed and members of the subsequent middle class grew discontent. With the assistance of the lower class the middle class took power and became exactly what they had replaced. Nonetheless the lower class, ever helpful, is left in its original position, promises unfulfilled. Winston’s plan to use the power of Prole numbers to overthrow The Party is at first logical, but not in application. Because the lower class cannot grasp the logic or material to advance, they remain more of a mass tool, than a mass population. Therefore, concerning the effectiveness of their population, in truth, there is none. The hierarchal society is something that has existed previous to the Revolution and still exists in the context of Winston’s, O’Brien’s, and Julia’s time. Regardless of the technical power that the Proles and the lower class may have to achieve eventual equality, they don’t retain the mental strength or fortitude in order to implement it.
Woody:
While it’s most definitely true that the Proles and/or the lower end of the social masses do maintain the technical power necessary to enact equality and change, it is important to note the absence of motive, thought, or desire to do so. Goldstein does admit to the significant potential this group has, but the fact that they simply cannot grasp such a goal or design any effective method is the crucial hindrance. As the Book itself states, the social divisions are historic and have long permeated global society. Equality, while perhaps wanted, is not practical or attainable in either a capitalistic society or a socialist one. Nonetheless though, the capacity the lowest rung has is ironic. They have can, but can’t.
The theory of the high, the middle, and the low discussed in Goldstein’s book contradicts Winston’s theory. He believes that “if there is hope it lays in the proles”, but Goldstein says that the proles are essentially stuck in a vicious circle. The high and the middle rotate continuously, and continue to keep the low in their place. Ingsoc, and the systems like it, just “froze a moment in time” so that the high would stay the high, and the middle stay the middle. However, because the proles constitute 85% of the population, the best hope of successful revolution lies in them, which means that the whole view and structure of society must be changed. I also found it interesting that the motion between the classes was based on a test, which made sense because the only way to continue the party was to continue the idea, not continue the bloodlines.
In response to Jessica F.:
She said that “Even if the proles were able to realize their potential of making a difference, there is still the reality of carrying out a plan that would be able to destroy a government which possesses many weapons and resources the proles could never get their hands on.”, which I disagree with. It is pretty clear in the book that the proles are actually quite free. There are no telescreens to impede on their lives, nothing to limit them except their intellect. So it seems to me that if they could get the education and intellect somehow, the rest of the population would be so surprised by a chance of uprising that they would be able to get weapons and turn the tide quite easily. This is the goal of the thought police, because the intellect of the proles is just about the only thing that could destroy the party.
The book is not designed as anti-Party propaganda. It is merely a detailed explication of how the current state of the world came into being and how that state sustains itself. Winston comments again after finishing his read that it didn’t’ provide any new insight, so much as it provided evidence to back his convictions. Therefore, despite the reasons listed that would make it extremely difficult for the proles to rebel, Winston clearly believes the book supports his sentiments-as he assures the reader Goldstein must eventually conclude as well.
We can assume then that despite the obvious complications some form of Hope must lay in the Proles. Perhaps it is hope of a different nature, not one of the physical capabilities of revolt but rather hope in the spirit of the proles-the one true source of untainted humanity. The proles may not be physically capable of an uprising but they act as an unbreakable, vast, untapped wealth of human spirit. We must also take into consideration it is the conscious and most directly oppressed Outer Party (middle class) that wants to rebel against the high (as history expects.) When Winston believes that hope lay in the proles, he offers two different forms. One in that the proles possess the keys to human spirit that must be unlocked in the conscious outer party, allowing for another middle/high switch. The less cynical approach to his statement would be that hope lay in the proles not necessarily to overcast the Party physically, but that by sustaining the human spirit in their population they will always be victorious over the Party’s aims. I’d like to believe the second way is the one they speak of, but it can’t be ignored that the middle may be ignorant to their own desires of high class power.
In response to Henry C:
You make a good point in showing that the proles are unable to rebel, as it is explicitly stated and alluded to throughout the passage of the book that we get to read. Effectively, the book serves to establish not that the Party is fallible, but that the party is indestructible, despite its flaws. Yes, there is no hope for the proles. This is true.
At the same time though, that’s not what the phrase is suggesting. “If there is any hope, it lay in the proles” doesn’t suggest that there is hope for the proles, but rather hope because of the proles. We have to keep in mind that it is the middle that historically seeks to overthrow the high, just as it is disillusioned members of the Outer Party that seek to overthrow the Inner Party. What Goldstein and Winston believe is not that the future will truly belong to the proles, but that the human spirit locked away in the proles is the only spark that can possibly ignite the middle to cast out the high. I doubt the brotherhood has any intention to establish the proles in a position of power-after all, why does it seem they focus their efforts on breaking free the Outer Party, not raising the proles to intellectual consciousness? The proles are the weapon cache of emotion and humanity, a resource to be tapped, a floodgate to be broken and its waters of spirit washed over the middle-class Outer Party masses. Hope does lay in the proles, but it is not hope for the proles.
The first chapter of Goldstein’s book outlines the concept of Ignorance Is Strength. In this chapter he discusses the differences between the classes and in his discussion it becomes evident that the only class that really is ever looking for change is the middle class. Like any common day class society, the middle class is constantly looking for a way of advancement. The high class is completely oblivious because they think that because they are in the high class they are untouchable and always will be in the high class. Therefore, they are thrown off when the middle class suddenly advances and takes over creating new high and middle classes. The low class is the proles. They have a secret hope that the middle class will take them along when they advance, but this never happens. They are merely used as strength in numbers, supporting the middle class’ struggle. The proles will never advance because they have to possible way of doing so. Winston sees this but he also sees their nature and way of life and knows that if the proles revolt they may have a chance at disrupting the party’s organization and therefore life as a whole for everyone. Winston’s plan for the proles would definitely be possible, but it would take much organization that they do not possess. And, if organization were to occur, the thought police may eventually find out and ruin their plans.
In response to J.R.:
I definitely agree with all of your points. The proles do have strength in numbers but they do not have the ability to achieve anything with their numbers. They have proven effective in the past for the purpose of advancing the middle class, yet they would never be able to maintain their status in any class other than the one that they are familiar with. If the proles were to leave the lower class who would take their place? Surely not the middle class. It would be nice if they could advance, but they do not know how to live as a middle class or upper class people. They have not developed the manners or behaviors of the superior classes. Even when Winston describes going to Mr. Charrington’s it seems to be a whole different world of people that are much less civilized than his own.
In response to Big Brother:
Winston’s belief in the revolt of the proles does not have as much strength as it did prior to reading the theory book given to him by O’Brien. Winston had always held in his mind a suspicion that the Inner Party did not pay much attention to the proles, however the book reinforced the idea that the Party intentionally keeps the proles preoccupied with the war. It would take the right combination of proles to actually have a revolution. The proles that have the big ideas need to stumble across other proles that have the same big ideas in order for them to be able to gain momentum towards overtaking the Party. The revolution won’t happen until some proles with big ideas unite, but once that happens they definitely will be able to overcome the ruling class. No oligarchic ruling class is so all-powerful that they are immune to any mutiny. And while it may take many attempts and many strategies, Winston’s plan for the proles to overthrow the party could still come into being.
-Lela D.
In response to Lincoln:
There definitely is a point to the observation that although the proles are not the ruling class, they are the free class. They aren’t overwhelmed with party rules and telescreens, and although they are oppressed, they are more or less free to do what they choose. This is a factor that may prevent their overthrowing the party. An essential first step to overthrowing the Inner Party would be to invade the Outer Party. However, after seeing what life is like as an Outer Party member, the proles may back down and consent to their place at the bottom of the hierarchy because life was truly freer not being a part of the strict societal rules imposed on Party members. This could seriously impede on Winston’s idea that the proles will revolt. Although the current situation may not be their ideal way of life, it is likely the motivation just isn’t there as a result of seeing what Party members are subject to.
-Lela D.
Goldsteins theory about high, middle and low class basically ignore the low class. Goldstein talks about how the high class and the middle class switch places, there is little interaction from the low class. I think that this theory in relation to Winston's theory of the proles is saying that if the proles rebelled, it would be so unexpected that it would reap major effects. Since Goldstein and the members of the party believe that if the proles are kept in the dark they will continue to live their lives apart from the rest of society and not have an effect. If like winston says they get educated and understand they are being opressed their rebellion (since they make up 85% of the population) would be able to overthrow big brother.
-Megan C.
-In response to Meredith R.
I think that Winston's vision of the proles overhtrowing BB is possible. If you ignore all of Goldsteins idea's and just look at the facts, the proles make up 85% of the population, while the ruling class makes up 2%. The proles have power in numbers. The only problem is they dont know how to use their powers and they aren't for the most part aware of their opression. But, if someone was able to teach them they would be able to overthrow BB easily.
The proles are almost a loss cause. They have no power to even attempt to overcome the government. Winston wants to use them to help build his “army” against the government, but the proles are too ignorant to be able to do anything useful. They don’t understand the government and therefore lack the power to do anything to change the way the government is. If the proles followed Goldstein and Winston and were able to be enlightened, there would be a chance for a rebellion, and a rebellion would cause change bringing Oceania out of corruption.
I agree with DJ's statements about how the proles are the form of hope for Oceania. The proles don't necessarily need to overthrow the government, but they could be the ones that help keep the spirits up in Oceania even though it's a difficult task to do because there's so much corruption. In this case, the proles are already doing their job in the society. They may be the lowest class, but I believe that they may be one of the more effective parts.
They key theory that stod out to me in 'the book' was that the proles will not revolt because they do not feel repressed. The proles do not know a life that is better than theirs, so they have nothing to compare themselves to except the Middle and the High. The proles have never develope conciousness about themselves and thus will never revolt.
Winston's plan is greatly altered because even Goldstein, the anti-party, claims that the proles will never rise up. Winston understand after reading the book that the way the party functions, they keep the proles poor, but content. The proles would never try to change their way of life.
Response to PaymonS:
The key fact that you bring up why the proles will never revolt is the fact that they are unconscious of the situation. Although this is very true, it is only part of why they will never revolt. The other part of the reason is that the proles are, simply put, content. Like Will said, they have freedoms, they have happiness, they have little government interference. The proles do not have many luxuries, but they do have the basic necessities. A common saying is that ignorance is bliss, and that could explain the prole's predicament, but even if they knew the situation, i doubt the proles would actually revolt. They have developed a comfertable status quo, and do not feel the need to change it.
This theory explains the stagnant position of the proles. The lowest class is always pushed so far into ignorance by the current ruling class that they have no chance of moving. This becomes a cycle because of the constant conflict between the middle and upper classes; the instability above the proles contributes greatly to their brainwashing because the new ruling class needs to rewrite history again, so truth becomes more and more relative the longer the society exists. Winston must accept that his plan for the lowest class cannot be realized, organization alone will not be enough to combat the social cycle.
There are only two genders.
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